Vintage Saxes/Setups
May 22, 2004 in Articles
Vintage Sax?
Jazz Future Prospect writes “I was wondering what’s the hipe about vintage. Doe sit have a better sound? Quality? Price? I admit to being a relitive newbie to the fine world of jazz and sax’s in general so I’m not to read in the subject. Also (to save the time of making a new post) how about new stuff? Is the new any better than the old? Or is it personal?”
Importance of Set-ups
Jazz Future Prospect writes “I’ve heard of set up’s for better playing, but I was wondering what is the point? I know that people get picky, but how do you find out what would work best? Where do you buy the peices (I, living in the middle of nowhere, have no music stores nearby).”To vintage a sax or not to vintage is a good question. It might be compared to people who like old, classic cars to new cars. Some might argue, with good reason, that the metallurgy from decades before might be the key to these vintage horns sound. Some old Selmer horns are supposedly made out of dense “bomb shell” type material. I had a friend in High School who owned an alto that we thought might be one of these. It was very heavy, and had a very unique sound.
It might also be the craftmanship from these times as well. I think the world of string instruments has yet to see the likes of Stradivari instruments being produced. They are valued for their craftmanship, and tone qualities. I think the same goes in the world of other instruments. Some people really gravitate towards a certain kind of sound that a vintage horn can offer (be it Selmer Balanced Actions, Mark VI, or old Conn horns, etc).
To move on to your question, or rather comment as you seem to already dismiss it, about setups. As you develop as a musician, you will try to find that “voice” that you hear in your head. What you think a saxophone should sound like. A different mouthpiece/reed/ligature setup helps one towards that goal.
Though that is not the only thing that will allow you to achieve the sound you want. Most of it is how you blow into the horn, and how your embouchure develops. For instance, I saw Don Menza (saxophonist with Buddy Rich) do a mouthpiece demo where he took 3 different mouthpieces and made them sound the same. The mouthpiece setup will make it easier for you to achieve the results.
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yampol said on May 23, 2004
I’ve been playing a 1941 Conn 10M tenor sax for the past 7 years. I use a Meyer hard rubber mouthpiece, Vandoren ZZ reeds, and a pretty basic metal ligature. I’ve played this setup in small jazz combo, big band, and concert band settings. Prior to that, I played a Yamaha 62 for about 10 years. I also have a mid-1990′s Keilwerth soprano, and a several flutes & clarinets. But, of all of these, my old Conn 10M is by far my favorite instrument to play. Conn horns were very popular from the 20′s through the 40′s. Lester Young and other swing era greats played this type of horn. In the bebop era, Charlie Parker often played a Conn 6M, the alto version of this horn.
When I bought the Conn, I wasn’t particularly looking for a vintage horn, and I certanly wasn’t looking for a Conn 10M. I mainly had an idea of the sort of tone that I wanted to produce, I tried lots and lots of horns, and this was the first one that I found where I could get the sound that I wanted.
The Yamaha 62 and the Conn 10M are extremely different. The Conn produces a more distinctive tone quality than the Yamaha — both a buttery subtone and also screamin’ sound that really cuts. I think the Yamaha is designed to blend, and works well for section playing, especially when other players have similar horns. For me, the Conn sings out with much less effort than the Yamaha. The intonation on the Conn isn’t as precise as the Yamaha, but it can be controlled. And, the key configuration on the Conn is a bit odd by today’s standards, especially the keys controlled by the left pinkie. They’re just layed out differently. It’s easy to get used to, but can be distracting if you switch between a vintage and a contemporary horn.
The mouthpiece has a tremendous affect on tone quality and intonation — after all, that’s where the sound is produced. Some of the greats were really obsessed with this. John Coltrane supposedly had a big sack of mouthpieces, and never really found one that he liked. On the other end of the spectrum, Gerry Mulligan liked his mouthpiece so much that he played it for decades until he wore a hole right through it. Then, he had it repaired, and kept playing it for several more years.
The ligature is important, but has a more subtle effect. For a long time, I used a soft ligature made by Rovner. This ligature produces an easy blowing feeling, but I think it also deadens the tone. So, I ended up switching back to a pretty basic metal ligature, and I’m happy with that now.
In sum, you have to develop your own concept of tone, and then you need to find the setup that helps you produce the tone that you hear in your mind. It’s helpful to listen to lots of different players, both live and on recordings, and to find out what kind of setup these players use. But, even if you try to copy their setup you’ll magically get their sound. Your own body & technique have a significant affect on tone color.
Good luck!
–Todd
sunaric said on May 23, 2004
I say “ditto” to this…time and familiarity after you settle into a set-up is ultimately the key to sounding like “yourself” and to having fine control of intonation and your ax.
I’ve been playing a 70′s silver Selmer MKVI tenor always and wouldn’t trade out for anything. Yamahas are the premier section horn (and Yani’s)but the Selmer is more personal.
I find in general that the pinkie plateaus on older instruments are too cumbersome for me to justify the fat round sound that you can get off an old Conn, Beuscher etc.
I do have an old balanced action Selmer alto, the palm key tone of which is so live and awesome that despite its “flexible” intonation, it is my solo alto sax of choice (for section work, I’d go Japanese).
Baris are a whole other thing. I go for the Yamaha pro there even though I have an amazing old Selmer as well as a Yanagasawa because it is both bright and powerful and despite what Gary Smulyan would tell you, YOU need the low “A” key.
The bottom line as far as I have experienced about the hype surrounding vintage horns is that old Selmers have decent enough finger action, workable intonation capabilities and incredible character so try to get your hands on one just for the experience of that little musical triste (which may well turn into a lasting marriage!. In the “old” (60′s and before) category, I personally wouldn’t touch anything else (unless you want to sound like Stan Getz). Most people prefer bright nowadays and you will be happier with something tight, newish, fast action, high “f#”, good action and in general easier more “slotted” intonation:
Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Jupiter, Cannonball etc.
PS. Don’t mess with anything but the most in tune soprano you can find or you will be tearing your hair out the first time you double a good horn player.
Jazz Future Prospect said on May 23, 2004
I do use an old (about 7 years old i guess, got it through the school for lending, the agrivation of being a freshmen!) Selmer tenor. It has almost the same sound as the new[er] Bundy II i keep at my house, also a school intrument. It has a more muted sound I like with a slightly more compact finger layout. I’m not one to care about where my fingers are, as long as their on the sax, so i guess im realy only concerned right now with is getting a mouthpiece. The heap I use now came with a chip in it form an old dusty box labled “used.” I shudder to remember that. It isn’t giving me any problems, or things to brag about. I am the lead tenor in my jazz band and am a soloist for about 89% of the songs we set up. Any suggestions on a mouth piece?
ericdano said on May 23, 2004
What type of Selmer tenor? Selmer makes a bunch. The USA models?
As for a mouthpiece, you need to try a bunch. Places like Woodwind and Brasswind offer a trial period on mouthpieces. I’d check out Bergs, Otto Links, and Meyers to start with.
ericdano said on May 23, 2004
Yeah, there is something about those old Conns. 
I have an old Martin tenor that is a joy to play. Great tone. The key layout drives me nuts though…
Doesn’t like Ornette Coleman or someone still carry around a ton of mouthpieces on a gig?
Speaking of ligatures, on Alto, I had been using some NO NAME POS metal ligature. I thought it worked ok. Then I got a Harrison ligature (the new ones by Rico), and that changed my alto sound….for the better. It seems things “ring” more. I’m more happy with my alto now 
ericdano said on May 23, 2004
Yes indeed. I one two late 60′s Selmer Mark VIs. The story behind the first Selmer is that I “tried it” for a week. I was playing on a Guardala alto (black lacquer). I put my mouthpiece on, and blew a note or two……and fell in love. The divorce from the Guardala was abrupt, but for the best 
BirdMan said on May 23, 2004
I just got a 1961 Conn 10m (Tenor) and have been very pleased. I absolutely love the left pinky setup. instead of moving the pinky downward to go from B to Bb, which has always been awkward to me, I can just move straight forward. The movement is much easier to me. The horn also came with a new protec case and 5 (count ‘em 5!) mouthpieces. These include a very open Guy Hawkins that screams, as well as a nice Berg Larsen… both metal… One thing I’ve noticed, though… Sometimes when I’m doing a fast run and end on a middle D, the horn plays a high A instead… it’s puzzling, and it may just be an embouchure thing (I’m primarily an alto player) any ideas?
mike said on May 24, 2004
It might just be lack of playing time and will improve the more you play the horn, but it is also possible that there is something slightly out of adjustment in the octave mechanism. If the upper (neck) vent pops open briefly, that could cause the note to jump to the A.
An exercise you can do is slur back and forth between the A and D. If you have lots of trouble getting the D, try closing the G key just a hair before you close the lower stack (FED keys).
TheJazzMan said on May 25, 2004
ive got this vintage conn chu berry sax with the micro tuning neck. a very resistant horn, but a warm tone beyond compare. for bari i use the yamaha 62, because of its versatility.
the sound should really come from you, but your setup can help you reach that point. its trial and error. what works best for you. ive got a friend who plays the cannonball global series, which she picked over a sweet mark vi, conn 10-m and others. nuts? no its just what she likes. it should be the same for. in a community of mark VI/series 2 and 3 owners i swear by my yamaha bari. i wouldnt mind trying an old conn 12-m, but thats an expense i cant afford for now. you should find what works fo you, stick to it, but never concede to the fact that it might be the only setup you ever play. tastes change.